Featured National vs. Continental banknote Co. identifiers

Discussion in 'United States Stamps' started by Jay, Mar 13, 2012.

  1. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    I just recieved this in the box today and it was sold to me as a #163 but I disagree. From what I was able to find it might be #141 or a #152?
    I'm trying very very hard to learn all I can about the secret marks and know that this particular denomination has never definitively had a die-hard factual secret mark and the upper right "coffer" has an anomaly that shows up on the different types of papers used by the different printing companies (National & Continental) and wear on the dies and is probably better suited for I.D.-ing that than the actual scott number...I think I understood that correctly?
    Any ideas on what this is? I'll do a lerger scan of the upper left hand "coffer" for your scrutiny.

    OK, here is my stamp:


    Some of the informational sites that I used.




    Here is the"coffer" or upper left hand triangle on my copy


    Here is the"FIFTEEN CENT" banner on my copy:


    Thank you for any help!


    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2014
  2. Philactica

    Philactica Active Member

    All your Scott numbers are on White wove paper perf 12.
    Only the #141 is with a Grill.
    #152 is without a Grill as is #163

    I am unfamiliar with the 'secret marks' nor the specialized U.S. Scott in which more detail paper types seem necessary to be understood to distinguish between the various issue that looks like a minefield tome.

    Perhaps other US classic collectors can help.
  3. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    OK mine has no grill that leaves only #152 or #163 then. Thank you I cant believe I missed that!
    certainly is a minefield! Well put!
  4. kacyds

    kacyds New Member

    Since the secret mark is not always there, you have to go by the paper that was used.

    Scott#152 - the paper used was hard, fairly white, smooth surfaced and of quite uniform thickness. The paper is translucent(light will show through if you hold the stamp toward a light)

    Scott#163 - the paper used was hard, translucent and grayish white in color

    Scott#189 - the paper was soft, thicker, more coarse and uneven texture and is yellowish in appearance compared to the two above.

    Hope this helps.
    Jay likes this.
  5. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    Very much actually. I have been studying paper types since I got into the pictorials or maybe earlier actually around about scott #65 or so- and all the varieties and paper types..bla bla.. in short it's nothing short of an education and I ought to get some sort of diploma when I finally get it down (if ever) :rolleyes: hahaha... OK back to work now. lol
  6. Philactica

    Philactica Active Member

    swish513 and kacyds like this.
  7. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    :rolleyes: hahaha That's great! Thank you.
  8. CalzoneManiac

    CalzoneManiac Member

    Nice little stamp you got there!
  9. Hochstrasse

    Hochstrasse Moderator Moderator

    I realize this thread is a couple of years old, but since it is showing up on the home page I thought I'd give it my two cents worth. I found the easiest way to distinguish the Scott 152 from the 163, which have pretty similar paper types, is by color. The 152 is pale to light orange and the 163 is orange to deep reddish orange. If one has copies of both the difference is quite evident. The other stamp has a discernibly different paper type, the Scott 189. A color guide might be useful here as a scan doesn't always portray the color accurately.

    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014
    Gunny likes this.
  10. I_Love_Stamps

    I_Love_Stamps Member

    I finally broke down and bought the Brookman references so I have all the info I'll ever need about these! This is a hard one only because of the intermediate issues and then toss in the worn plate theory and one could study this issue forever! Thank you very much. -Jay
  11. littleriverphil

    littleriverphil Active Member

    And that is why lots of collectors do specialize in the bank note issues, because they are very difficult, I was sidetracked, as I was following paper types, it dawned on me that the rushed printing job of 88 face different stamps ( the Departmental stamps ordered, plates made and printed within 3 months ) would have all of the paper types and more plate varieties. I consider the Officials as part of the Bank note issue, as they were printed bt Continental and American BNC.
  12. littleriverphil

    littleriverphil Active Member

    Add in the computers, scanners, and monitors don't all display colors the same. My own scanner ( I hate it ) always shows a scan different than the stamp I just scanned.
    By the way, the 15 cent stamp that started this discussion looks like soft paper from the one close up of the upper left corner, notice the fibers in the perfs.
    Hochstrasse likes this.
  13. littleriverphil

    littleriverphil Active Member

    LOL After you re-read Brookman a few times, you'll probably have more questions, as I said in an earlier post the large banknotes are difficult, and that is what makes them so interesting.
  14. Molokai

    Molokai Moderator Moderator

    Trolling old posts today... re: Brookman and the 15 cent banknote -


    There is also Bill Weiss' monograph - The United States 15c Stamp of 1870-1890.
    Gunny and Hochstrasse like this.
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